Butler needs to be nerfed

There’s a lot to talk about with Butler so I’ll just mention the parts that I feel are most important

Butler is an extremely powerful BD, to the point of it being overpowered, it needs to be nerfed. Butler is almost on the level of the Prince in terms of power, because Butler:

  • Is very easy to confirm (except in cult games)
  • Can deny kills + conversions just like Prince by occupying the killers/converters

But in addition to this, Butler:

  • Is non-unique, meaning up to three of this pseudo-Prince can spawn in a game
  • Can protect himself twice from almost all attacks/conversion by partying (unless they are sorc bombed, or the killer/converter is occ immune, which is quite rare)
  • Can confirm himself as a 100% BD King without a shadow of a doubt by poisoning the king + partying and stepping if the king was EK/neut/PK

The problem I have with Butler’s direct occupation is that he can completely cripple evils, and there really isn’t anything that they can do about it, if Butler makes the decision to chain occupy them. Prince can do the same thing, but it’s balanced out by the fact that Prince is unique, and a number of other factors. Drunk at least has some counterplay, most killers can choose to not attack if they think they are going to get debauched/HHed, Sorceror can detonate, and Reaper can CoD to kill the Drunk.

Just kill/convert the Butler right? Well no, because if the Butler has outed his claim and drawn attention to himself then it’s likely that he’ll just decide to party. He can do this twice in a row if he wants, or in the most critical moments so that he can ensure his existence in the late game. Why should the (arguably) second most powerful BD member be able to protect himself from basically everything, twice?

And if the Butler thinks that King is evil, poisons him, parties, steps, and Prince/another Butler or Drunk is alive so it isn’t too much of a loss to king him, BD can have a 100% BD king - there is very, very little counterplay to this.

So basically, Butler has the power of Prince (minus the axes), plus 2 charges of “you can’t kill or convert me”, plus “i am 100% confirmed by poisoning EK, i partied elect me for king”. This power is also non-unique, good luck trying to get anything done as starting evil when there is 2 or more butlers + living prince (even worse if there is a Mercenary or other living offensives)

I think it’s ridiculous to give Butler this much power and I would like to see it nerfed slightly, somehow.


Less parties or none honestly

minus the chat
minus the visit prevention to any target
minus the supreme occupation (occupies occupation immune)

fake a deathnote on a guranteed EK

IMO here’s how we can nerf butler:

  • make butler unique
  • Instead of making people immune after 3 occupations/redirections/jails, make it so if you are occupied/redirected/jailed you will become immune the next night
  • Butler shouldn’t be able to occupy night one. Occupying so early can only hurt BD and is unfair to evils
  • Party should be able to target anyone. This is so SS can have an easier time faking butler, and butlers will be less likely to use it on themselves. Parties should also not be able to target the same player twice in a row(like merc’s guard).
  • Remove immune feedback for butler/drunk. Add a new day ability for both which allows you to see if someone has redirection/occupation immunity at the end of the night(2 uses). Add back occupation/redirection immunity to NKs and MM(for possessor, make it so that you can occupy the person being controlled to prevent the kill, and redirect them if they don’t use a visiting ability. For reaper, make it so gather darkness makes you immune to occupation/redirection as well).

minus the chat
minus the visit prevention to any target
minus the supreme occupation (occupies occupation immune)

“well actually”
im pretty sure most people already know this, my absolute most sincerest apologies for missing a few minor details like these

you’re exaggerating everything

that’s the point

Me who chain occ’d the Cult Leader since D1 who got 0 converts: :smiley:

Make all players immune to occupation and redirection for 1 night every time they are occupied, redirected, or imprisoned.

Instead of the “immune after 3 times” which usually means the game ends before you get to enjoy your immunity.


Don’t you think this would be a major change that nerfs classes such as merc and SS ect.

I’d generally disagree with making occupation something that weak and it generally wouldn’t make butler less of a problem.

Personally people don’t see that butler was designed when 2/3s of the nks were occupy Immune and MM had hidden occ immunity, this let occupation/redirection work on a lot of things

My change would be to

  1. Reduce party to 1 use.
  2. Give mastermind occupy immunity
  3. Butler doesn’t learn about occupy immunity
  4. Occ immunes will not learn they had occupy attempt

As we’re here I actually want to talk about a simple pronce nerf.

How about instead of Imprison acting like it’s own thing it just occupies the visitors, this means occ immunes can visit Jails but generally it will function the same way.

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You could get around that by making occupations which affect visitors bypass immunity, or give merc and SS one-use day ability that makes your occupations bypass immunities(for merc it could cost one brilder)

I mean the main problem with Butler is that it’s simply not fun to be occupied 3 nights in a row, and it’s unfair to evils.

Evil occ immunes should learn that their has been an attempt though

This is awful for ToL. It would nerf CW way too much

It doesn’t? The main way to confirm yourself is to nado, not to Intensify.

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what? just being confirmed as “CW/Ritualist” is still super good

It would nerf cw? Intensify is different to normal occupies as it goes through anyway that’s not what i was talking about.

Also evils learning they had occ attempt is good

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You’re right, but still, such a change would be detrimental to ToL.

ToL and FoL are two very different games.

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it would not be detrimental to ToL because it opens up the possibility for occ immune non-BD classes without butler becoming a mini-investigative

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it also nerfs butler

kind of minorly for now but still