Juliet [Neutral Killer]

Juliet [Neutral Killer]


  • Impregnable: Death Immune at night.
  • Stalker: Gain a Random BD member at the start of the game. They are your lover. As long as your lover is alive you are immune to bleeding and occupation. If your lover dies, you are forced to mourn for a night. If your lover is alive when you have conquered all other foes, they win the game with you. Your lover may only win with you in a Juliet win, NOT vice-versa. You can’t whisper your lover.

Day Abilities:

  • Pray [2 uses]: Pray for your lover, granting them death immunity for the night.
  • Extreme Measures [2 uses]: Bleed a player and secretly cancel their voting for a day. Lose all charges if your lover dies.

Night Abilities:

  • Poison Goblet [inf uses]: Kill a player via a poison goblet.
  • Jealous Rage [1 use]: Kill everyone visiting your target.

Wincon: Classic NK wincon

STUFF I WANT TO SAY IDK: I’ve always wanted to make a psycho guardian angel, like a yandere or something. I chose to make this a psycho Juliet since that’s the only medieval lover I can think of lol. Is Juliet even medieval lover person? Whatever. I might make changes to the names since they don’t stick on me at the moment. I want like medieval swords and stuff. I also think I made Stalkers description too long. Eh, whatever, comment if you think anything is OP, it’s likely something is.

Classes that can’t be lovers: Prince/Starting King/Hunter.

NOTE: I’m changing some stuff around, most of the stuff in the Stalker passive is gonna get changed most likely.

Could you clarify what it’s exact win condition is?

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nk wincon

So if its lover is BD-sided, does that mean this role wins with BD, or the lover role wins with this NK, and wins alone?

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Only BD lover can win with you, not vice versa. Ill add that incase ppl get confused

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what happens if lover is converted

I see that causing potential conflicts in which cult/unseen lover siding against cult/unseen for juliet win

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i had an idea where whispering your lover is big nono, so you can only out as one end game, to prevent BD/Cultseen stonewalling their faction.

That seems somewhat hard to enforce, and suspected juliet’s would probably be forced to whisper other players to prove themselves

if you can find a good way to implement and discourage whispers then I don’t really have too much of a problem with cultseen lover/juliet dynamic

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hmm ill try think about since i dont have any counters atm, but thanks for the suggestions!

Just to clear out some mechanics:

Do you know your lover? Do they know you? Is it like Cultseen faction where you know who is who? I suppose you don’t share a night room? - even though that would be flavorful.

The Extreme Measures that bleeds and cancels votes seems a bit too powerful. First of all it almost doubles the amounts of bleeds evil classes have, making it very difficult for healers to keep up, especially while protecting high priority BD targets. Further difficult if there are few healers or only Chronomancers.

Poison Goblet: Does this function any different from a standard attack? Like Butler’s Poisoned Wine that can only be Healed/Delayed? I imagine not and that it’s just a flavorful description.

The lover:
Their win condition changes to: Defeat all enemy factions that oppose your Juliet ? Do they win if they die or do they have to stay alive to win with Juliet? If so that makes this the hardest win condition in the game.
What if Juliet gets Executed? Is the lover then just hanging around without a way to win? Or could they possibly win by themselves? Do they commit suicide? Perhaps they take up a vengeful role, changes class and becomes a DI-less killer? That last one kinda necessitates that the Lover cannot be converted.

What happens if a Lover gets converted?

Can a lover be a heretic?


Pulling a BD out from day 1 is not a major problem, but between 3 neuts, EK and now Juliet lover, that leaves a BD team of 9. Factor in 2 kills from the first night by Assa & NK and BD is most likely at 7. In these games BD cannot win without some ludicrous luck.

Perhaps it would be more random if any non-Cultseen, non-starting King could be the Lover. So just adding neuts to the mix and Hunter - why would Hunter be exempt?

The class of your Lover also has a very large impact on how the game might work out.
If you get a Butler, you can have them basically becomes a Sellsword that can also poison a potential EK.
If you get a Physician, you’re basically stuck with a Fool that can only confirm themselves by opposing your win condition - whether that is to heal your Extreme Measures (could be a good thing to hard-confirm a phys claim) or to heal the Cultseen’s targets/bleeds.
If you get a Chronomancer it could potentially be useful by transferring deaths to high priority BDs at the right time.
If you get any invests, it’s basically a useless Lover and one that Cultseen is more likely to want dead. Social are likewise useless but is not that magnetic to daggers. Invests can still be utilized to cover for your claim, but like we see with convert invests, it can backfire quickly. One advantage is that killing a Lover don’t necessarily reveal that they are a Lover.
Getting a Knight is mostly awkward as they cannot CS for you unless it’s to deal with guaranteed Cultseen or problematic neuts. If the Lover Knight hits a BD and suicides it would seem they lose their win condition, so it’s very risky to make that bet. You might end up throwing your own win, just to have your Juliet win. A knight defending their lover could be a way to deflect that Cultseen gets to know the identity of your Juliet - could actually be quite useful for late game.
Getting a CW as Lover with the new CW changes is somewhat interesting, as they can cover for you if you get attacked by claiming they cast Intensify with Icy Veins (OCC immunity + death immunity) - two statuses you naturally have.
Getting a Drunk is like the Butler a fair enough target.

Borderline it feels like Phys, (Chrono), (Noble), Mystic, Maid, Princess, Sheriff/Pala, and (Observer) are less useful. Chrono, Noble and Obs have some applications but may be marginal. Chrono with transfer death, Noble with Force Vote and Obs to hard-confirm innocence.

The better options would be Butler, Drunk and Knight - basically all the K/O classes - and then CW due to swaps and the OCC Imm / DI check.

If we add neuts as Lovers, then all but Fool is good Lovers. Alch probably the best because they can attack and they can protect themselves from Cultseen and that BD usually wants Alchs alive.

Overall: Interesting idea, but it does have a few kinks that might need to get worked out first.

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I think I was a bit vague on how lover works. Lover still wins the BD/Cultseen. I’ll try to address your problems but im on a phone atm and oh my god typing with this thing is infuriating

If the lover can still win with BD/Unseen, I think this makes an awkward mechanic. It basically turns the Lover neutral, where they can win with either team. If a Lover ever gets to know the identity of their Juliet, what will prevent them from outing that information? It clears out the NK and they can still win with BD. Less kills means BD has more time to search for Cultseen.

The flavor kinda fails if the Lover has an incentive to backstab their Juliet.

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Hmm, I suppose you are right. The lover mechanic thing is kinda a WIP thing so yeah lol. I also think your suggestion for neutral lovers is good idea, so think I’m gonna change it for that :eyes:. Also sorry for late response lel.

It could be considered that the Lover’s win condition is:
Defeat all factions that opposes your Juliet. If your Juliet is executed by the Court or the Prince, you will turn into The Vengeful. If your Juliet dies any other way, you will win with your normal win condition.
(Any other way means to bleeding, to a Hunter Bear, to a Frenzy Assassination)

While converted:
Defeat all factions that opposes your Juliet. If your Juliet dies, you win by defeating the Blue Dragon faction.
(This unlocks the ability for the Lover to target Cultseen with their abilities. The Cultseen will not be notified of your selection if you target one of them.)

The Vengeful (neutral)

Win condition: Live to see the Blue Dragons defeated. (No victory scene to avoid knowing when they are truly defeated.)

Passive: Obsessive Love
You are immune to occupy and redirect.

Day ability 1: Cunning Plan (Inf charges)
Select a player. You will appear to visit that player during the night.

Night ability 1: You did this! (Inf charges)
Attack target player.

Night ability 2: My love, my heart (2 charges)
Become death immune for one night.

This is a NK-lite without the passive defenses but with the added benefit of being OCC Immune. I did this out of flavor that the Vengeful would only care about getting his revenge on the Blue Dragon, no matter what.
And because otherwise it would mean Butler/Drunk/(Mystic) Lovers would be vastly superior in general because they keep their passives through class changes.

Perhaps it could be interwoven a bit better so the Juliet player and the Lover can win with each other while dead, but the Juliet character could be more weak than the standard NK, because they basically have an apprentice take over, MM and Assassin style.

It would definitely be a very different and unique kind of NK, and I wager it would shake up the meta.

One fault is that Cultseen has a lot of incentive to hunt down the Juliet because it would basically mean they would convert the NK to only want to kill Blue Dragons on top of getting rid of a Blue Dragon. However you cannot really know what kind of NK it is, so if Cultseen found NK early or a suspected NK, they wont know if it’s good or bad to out them. Cultseen in general doesn’t want NK out too soon as they require the kills early in the game or it gives BD too much time to figure out the good from the bad.

This idea probably needs some more tweaking, but could be interesting to shape.

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I do like this idea of Vengeful here :eyes:. I don’t how balanced it is to have an apprentice NK, but I do really like this idea. My only problem is My love, my heart is a bit basic, but eh. Also, yeah, Venegful’s wincon could be a bit problematic with all this, but it could stay for now. An interesting idea I had was placing the lover in the neut slot, so you don’t pull out a BD. All I have to say for now. :shrug:

If the idea of the Vengeful would be used, I suggest to make Juliet weaker than they are right now. Also if this happens I would not put the Lover squarely in the Neut slots - then it would be easy to track down a Vengeful and off them. The Vengeful needs to blend in.

The only reason for My love, my heart is to survive if you have a suspicion that you will be attacked or Death Transfer by a Chronomancer.

Feel free to change it to something else, just keep in mind that this is NK no. 2 that is borderline aligned with Cultseen. Cultseen has no interest in killing the Vengeful - but they may do it by mistake. If they hit a DI target, they’ll likely know not to hit them again. If it was a passive it would be too safe for the Vengeful.

The Lover should have no incentive to turn in their Juliet. There is a fringe issue where you can out your Juliet and let a BD Hunter bleed the Juliet so the Lover wont turn Vengeful. However that also means you occupy the Prince’s jailings or a Butler/Drunk redirecting the Juliet for two nights.

A bit ham-fisted but perhaps the Juliet should have an ability to poison both herself and her Lover - taking out the both of them AND disabling the Lover from winning. AKA if you out your Juliet, they’ll most likely take you out with them. It needs to be a day ability with a retro-active effect for the win condition removal. Otherwise the BD Lover can out their Juliet, get executed on stand and get BD to get rid of the Juliet while winning with the BD team - should they win.

It would seem flavorful to the story that a betrayal will be met with swift reckoning. Alternatively a Juliet outing should culturally be considered a game throwing maneuver / ban worthy offense - even if you technically can win by doing it.